Kerr 69.5-15 vs. Kerr 69.28-37

Join Roman and Simon as we do our best to test the listings made by Kerr and later by Chan. What has been missed? Which overprints have been assigned to the wrong towns? What is genuine and what is suspect? - You get the idea......

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Kerr 69.5-15 vs. Kerr 69.28-37

Post by admin » Tue Aug 29, 2017 9:41 am

The question is - are these two distinct overprints and if so how do you tell the difference?

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Re: Kerr 69.5-15 vs. Kerr 69.28-37

Post by Roman » Tue Aug 29, 2017 10:34 am

Excellent question! :)

My opinions are so far:

- Kerr 69.28-37 does not exists
or
- Kerr 69.28-37 we never saw in real or scan

There is no single overprint set in all Liberated Area stamps (which were mainly overprinted) known where a set is split into a rubber and wood chop overprint, by a virtual identical design and shape of the overprint. We can put this possibility aside without many worries. Kerr shows in his book between T121 / T122A [123A] two very different chops (just compare the character “政” at the left).

Chan was a small hope to find some more information, but as usual he copied 1:1 what Kerr wrote. He shows on page 829/830 two rubber chops for the two different sets.

The 1f stamp only exists in “rubber” chop set and the 5f only exists in the “wood” chop set, so the final proof we will find when we once discover a 5f stamp!

All covers I saw have the Kerr 69.13 (50f) on it. Clearly to see is a rubber chop.

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Re: Kerr 69.5-15 vs. Kerr 69.28-37

Post by admin » Tue Aug 29, 2017 10:44 am

HuLan1 is a scan of a collection that I made some time ago, I don't have access to it now.

Hulan2 is from my own collection.
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Re: Kerr 69.5-15 vs. Kerr 69.28-37

Post by Roman » Tue Aug 29, 2017 2:55 pm

I add you a scan from my collection (two sets Kerr 69.5-15).
Kerr-69.5-15.jpg
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Re: Kerr 69.5-15 vs. Kerr 69.28-37

Post by admin » Wed Aug 30, 2017 3:51 am

I sometimes wonder about Chan's distinction with regard to wood or robber chops. His thinking is that if a chop is clear and sharp it is made with something solid ie; wood. If the chop looks soft, squished or blurry it must have been made by something softer ie; rubber.

But what if the stamp itself is on a yielding surface, such as a loosely stacked pile of sheets of stamps, or a felt mat, in such cases the surface would depress making a wooden chop blurry - you see where I am headed with this. It is simply not that simple.

I can't answer the Kerr 69.28-37 question without a full set of T123A to look at - have you ever seen a 10f+10f with this chop (Kerr 68.30/31)? These are unique to the second set so if they exist at all they may look very different.

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Re: Kerr 69.5-15 vs. Kerr 69.28-37

Post by Roman » Wed Aug 30, 2017 4:17 am

it’s like you said, to distinguish a wood and rubber chop just buy the mentioned criteria is hard up to impossible. A sign of a wood chop (sometimes also for metal but for metal chop some other criteria more important) are fine breaks, creaks and holes in the overprint, I add you a photo from a typically wood chop. The overprint impression is also related how the ink was mixed (thick, thin, more / less water) and the hardiness of the material under the stamp sheets (wood table or a pile of sheets). Nevertheless of course if you smack the chop hard or soft on the stamp and how long the chop remain on the stamp surface.

We can say an identical chop, once in wood and once in rubber is quite impossible. So I will stick to my both opinions. But as Kerr was a diligent researcher we just maybe never saw any impression of the 69.28-37.

I never saw (unfortunately) any other overprint expect mentioned in Kerr 69.5-15. If I'm not wrong Kerr 68.30-31 comes with a complete other chop.

I checked your stamps, they are same as my samples: Kerr 69.5-15.
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Re: Kerr 69.5-15 vs. Kerr 69.28-37

Post by doc032848 » Wed Aug 30, 2017 5:42 am

Members, I am delighted to see such fascinating questions finally asked about MLOs. I had hoped part II of my Clipper article would have been published in this past Clipper but it wasn't. I don't know why. It would have helped you all to see the broad scheme of issuance that I strongly believe I can prove. But, as you all know, proof is in varying degrees, based on evidence.
I can not locate my Kerr at this very moment (I don't use it day to day) but on recall area 69 is Hulan and has been incorrectly listed by "Kerr" as the books are known.
You are correct that, as listed, the two sets are the same. There are many errors in "Kerr" of this and many other types.
Kerr got his original listings in the Kerr Clipper article from Chen Kee's Catalog, which in turn is a pirate of an earlier one which Kerr knew nothing about but I have from a friend of its author given to him, in person in 1947, who gave it to me in 1978/79. Chan got his listing from "Kerr" and my Mukden book.

Now on the question of how to distinguish rubber chops from wooden chops as Chan does I can not tell you. The overprints were applied by many means: wood, rubber (not all the same kind), steel, type, bone, etc. I have a way of doing it and on some overprints it is easy, in fact most are easy (to me...but I am not a god), and there are some that I can not tell for certain. The words "hard" and "soft" etc in "Kerr" are not his words.
I knew Kerr well and he told me a lot of things privately about his catalogs. He and Paul Hock were the strongest supporters of my research. He also attended the talks I gave on several occasions. I gave one virtually every year at the Annual Meetings and have one on VHS tape which I gave at CAPEX '87 (the International Show). I also gave talks to the local societies which we did not also make note of at the time in the Clipper. Just as examples, I gave them to the Pittsburgh club, our Philadelphia Chapter of the CSS, the Northeast Federation of Stamp Clubs show, or New England Chapter of the CSS, etc.
I think the best thing for me to do right now is show you how I tell the kinds of overprint apart. What do you think?

I wonder if any of you have seen any other catalogs of MLOs besides Kerr and Chan?

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Re: Kerr 69.5-15 vs. Kerr 69.28-37

Post by admin » Wed Aug 30, 2017 6:13 am

Just to add a proof to what has been said see these photos. If you look at the 中 (Chung) you will see two distinct types shown for T122 and T123A in Kerr's sketches. Here is one of the images from above with both types, the one with the loop and the one without. One well defined and the other soft.

Here is what I think happened. In Hulan they quicky ran out of the 5f and 10f stamps which are useful values and then started overprinting the remaining values. This may be why it is very hard to find 5f and 10f stamps (assuming they ever existed with a Hulan opt).

Kerr got it wrong and Chan simply followed Kerr's listing.

The only other book that I have showing MLO,s is Yang and he concentates on the Communist issues, I know Chiu did some work but I image his observations found thier way into Kerr.

I have somewhere a scan of the red chop I will see if I can find it. - Has anyone else encountered this?
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Re: Kerr 69.5-15 vs. Kerr 69.28-37

Post by Roman » Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:37 am

Interesting observation. Combined chops of 2 or 4 were often used to overprint sheets, but I think here is just a "fat" and overinked overprint. The chop is the same, you can see in the overlapped scan:
Overlapped-(top-bottom-stamp).jpg
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The thinner overprint fits 100% in the fat overprint. All other characters also perfect.

The first use of these stamps is around June 1946. At that time only 50f und 1$ would have a practical use, all other stamps have no use from the beginning. As Hulan was very early liberated in August 15, 1945 it would be interesting to find any used cover before June 1946!

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Re: Kerr 69.5-15 vs. Kerr 69.28-37

Post by admin » Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:00 am

How do you do that - Photoshop?

The earliest 50f (domestic letter rate) I can find goes back to May - see attached. This picture comes from an MLO collection that I was offered a couple of years ago. It was a very good collection and had a lot of good covers, the problem was it also had a lot of Harbin dealer covers with chops from everwhere cancelled in Harbin. These are no use to a serious collector, I don't know what you think? I declined the collection but the scans are interesting for research.

It would also be good to have the art of deciding what made the chops explained.
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