Kerr 69.5-15 vs. Kerr 69.28-37

Join Roman and Simon as we do our best to test the listings made by Kerr and later by Chan. What has been missed? Which overprints have been assigned to the wrong towns? What is genuine and what is suspect? - You get the idea......

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Roman
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Re: Kerr 69.5-15 vs. Kerr 69.28-37

Post by Roman » Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:44 am

Thank you for your post! If the collection still in sale, please let me know? The Harbin dealer covers you can put aside without worries, they don't have any value, they are mass fabricated.

With this cover we can move the earliest issued day to May. In Harbin Area was the postal rate for covers since October 1945: 50f ... so for what were all the other stamps overprinted? 1f, 2f, 3f, ...? Why? Especially as it looks like, it was possible made somewhere in 1946. But this is a question you can ask for many MLO issues. if we keep in mind, that there was no practical and postal need to overprint most of the stamps, it's very unlikely even two complete issues like Kerr mentioned exists ... From my side I believe now more as before the 2nd issue (where Chan, because he has no better idea, invented the story of wood chop ) does not exists.

A general unpleasant explanation for all the overprinted stamps without practical use would be, they were all overprinted later for the collectors whereas the 50f and 1$ were the only stamps which were genuine used / issued for the postal use. A better feeling gives this explanation, straight after the liberation between the time of August und December 1945 the stamps were overprinted (the time between Manchukuo Yuan (滿洲國圓) and Northeast Currency (東北幣) ) as here still the Manchukuo postal rate from October 1, 1944 was often applied. Against the 2nd explanation is the fact we don't have any cover evidence. For us here interesting is the situation for both scenarios was no need for a 2nd issue!

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Re: Kerr 69.5-15 vs. Kerr 69.28-37

Post by archiem » Thu Aug 31, 2017 9:54 am

This is exactly what a forum is supposed to be about! Congratulations.

I sincerely hope others will participate at whatever level and contribute to the discussion.

Thank you.

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Re: Kerr 69.5-15 vs. Kerr 69.28-37

Post by doc032848 » Fri Sep 01, 2017 7:32 am

Roman, Members, In the time the NE was still in the hands of the Manzhouguo P. O., the Guomindang learned from Stalin how Manzhouguo was to be taken back for the people of China per the Yalta Agreements. They began to arrange the personnel and resources needed, from what little they knew.
You must understand that in China, the P. O. was under the Ministry of Finance, so if a way could be found to transfer as many of the assets of the old government over for the use of the new, it would preserve important resources for further use. We must also remember that in any transfer of power, it is necessary for the personnel of the old regime to make an orderly transition. The Manzhou had already made a mistake in working with the Japanese for which they would pay a high price, it made no sense to be uncooperative with the Guomindang who were the people who represented "China" when the peace was signed on September 2, 1945.
The Guomindang had Northeast Bank dollar notes prepared for circulation, and the first set of stamps ready to supply the post offices. BUT, the Russians would not let them into the Banks to circulate the money, and the stamps pegged to that currency could not be used until 1946.
In the meantime, the MLO was created and Manzhouguo Currency continued in use. Rates at first were in that currency.

Now, your 50 fen rate cover was not necessarily in CPC currency or Dongbei Bi.

The error in the Hu-lan listings is that the T123A as I recall is not correctly illustrated. The overprint for that set is not shown at all!
The two overprints you show my good man are clearly not the same as you say. The cover you have seems genuine to me but I do not have my catalog before me or my cover list for Hulan. It should be in the same date range as the others I have seen showing that overprint, with the same rate.
Please know members that many of the stamps selling today are counterfeits of the original overprinted stamps.
The people doing the overprinting today are not using inks originally used in most cases. It is very similar to the counterfeiting of the six district overprints of Japanese Occupied Huabei and Neimeng. A gentleman overseas has to use micro-spectroscopy to tell the real from the bad. One of the things that should make you smile is that many of the stamps they are counterfeiting were bogus to start with!! It is similar to the Whole Nation Is Red stamps, i. e., many fakes are counterfeits of counterfeits!
Finally, the covers you speak of Roman, I know something about and do have at least one real value: they originated in the Dongbei, and the stamps on them were overprinted there.

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Re: Kerr 69.5-15 vs. Kerr 69.28-37

Post by admin » Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:54 am

Forgeries of forgeries - we all know that a large proportion of overprints were the creation of dealers but overtime these too have become collectable. Chan has tried to sort out some of this and noted those he thought were bogus.

Covers are certainly the best test. The rate table you list in your book is my guide as to whether a cover is carrying the correct postage I also look carefully at the postmark although these are often blurry and not much help. Sadly, I am totally unable to decipher the handwritten Chinese so that is not much help.

If value of the stamps on a cover cannot be rationalised using your rate chart I usually view it as philatelic and I don't mind these too much providing they a: come from the same town as the overprints and b: carry genuine stamps.

Rather sportingly eBay allows me to show a collection of bogus stamps being auctioned on thier website see http://www.ebay.com/cln/simon_sells/man ... 3907048010 (or it could be they have not noticed).

I am still waiting for the wise words about how to identify the different methods for creating the overprints, please explain this as this could also be useful for picking up fakes.

If you have any more fake detection tricks please let us know (short of using a mass-spectrometer that is).

Here is an image or the red overprint - it looks genuine to me............
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HulanT122RedUnlisted.jpg
HulanT122RedUnlisted.jpg (48.04 KiB) Viewed 824 times

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Re: Kerr 69.5-15 vs. Kerr 69.28-37

Post by Roman » Fri Sep 01, 2017 10:54 am

@George, if the
The error in the Hu-lan listings is that the T123A as I recall is not correctly illustrated. The overprint for that set is not shown at all!
How does the 2nd overprint looks like? You have any scan you can share with us?

Chinese Postal Rate books shows for Northeast China between 1945~1947 down to different areas individual postal rates, but I'm doubt sometimes if all this information are always correct. Various valid, sometimes concurrent, currencies also listed. Another project would be a detailed map which shows for Northeast areas which exact currency were valid in which area at some specific time ... but not now! :D

I don't want to write so much how to discovery fake cancels (same facts matches also most overprints) to train the wrong guys. One very important point, a cancel is never 100% flat (only fake cancels are 100% flat), so with some training you can distinguish a fake cancel (or overprint) just study the characteristics. Other things you can check: color of the chancel (black, grey, something in between), the pigment distribution, was a water based cancel ink used (how the ink was dissolved into the paper). The whole impression of the chancel, fake cancel were usually made out of a 2D scan which shows some dirties and often is not a 100% circle when the genuine draft cancel sample was not well scanned. In short, is practically not possible to fake the impression from a 3D cancel out of a 2D scan, too many information missing. As the Japanese cancel were usually reused for NE you must have also for the years "35" an other font, etc. So far broadly speaking how to detect fake cancels. For overprints similar aspects matches. For overprints in color other black you can use different UV light with wave lengths of 245nm, 365nm or 405nm, by this you can sort out already ~80% of all fakes easily.

The research material I use are my own stamps and old scans from different collections which were build in the 60~80s. New material I consider only very carefully or just skip it, if I see anything doubtful.
many fakes are counterfeits of counterfeits
That's a true fact, and a good point for all of us, most guys who fake stamps don't have any genuine stamps. So most fakes are absurd bad! :D

I add three photos:
- The overprint was made by a flat chop (see explanation above)
563024.jpg
563024.jpg (61.99 KiB) Viewed 824 times
- The overprint was made by laser printer and not types.
153211055A-Forgery.jpg
153211055A-Forgery.jpg (434.16 KiB) Viewed 824 times
- The stamp pair in the middle is a fake overprint.
Fake-(pair-in-middle).jpg
Fake-(pair-in-middle).jpg (388.29 KiB) Viewed 824 times
But let us use another thread talking about fakes. Here is the question: What is the 2nd mysterious issue from Hulan (Kerr 69.28-37)! :)

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Re: Kerr 69.5-15 vs. Kerr 69.28-37

Post by admin » Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:05 pm

But let us use another thread talking about fakes. Here is the question: What is the 2nd mysterious issue from Hulan (Kerr 69.28-37)!
Chan lists these see pages 829/30 with a typical sample picture, I don't think the black chops look different enough for me to list two different sets. I have not seen the double 10f value so I am unable to comment on that.

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Re: Kerr 69.5-15 vs. Kerr 69.28-37

Post by doc032848 » Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:36 am

Roman, Simon,

First of all, I have found the page with my Hu-lan stamps that are incorrectly pictured. I have 3 values, one of them on cover. So as soon as I can find my direction of how to scan the cover to show you, I will do it.
I have only seen one set, years ago, and offered to buy it for whatever the owner felt it was worth. I got NO reply.
When he sold his collection, he did not tell me he had put it up for sale, so he lost out on a chance to have someone buy this stuff for prices no one else was paying at the time.

I will also try to illustrate different chop types. One I forgot to mention was water buffalo horn chop! :)

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