Mythical Overprints 1 - Kerr 86 Jao Ho **Fact or Fiction**

Join Roman and Simon as we do our best to test the listings made by Kerr and later by Chan. What has been missed? Which overprints have been assigned to the wrong towns? What is genuine and what is suspect? - You get the idea......

Moderators: archiem, doc032848, wlin98004

User avatar
admin
Site Admin
Posts: 120
Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2009 7:14 pm
Location: Rural Sussex, England
Contact:

Mythical Overprints 1 - Kerr 86 Jao Ho **Fact or Fiction**

Post by admin » Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:55 am

I have collected MLO's for 10 years and have never encountered a stamp from this town. I have some fake overprints but nothing genuine. Kerr has a note that says - see covers. When I do this he refers to stampless cover, so where did the overprints he shows come from?

The town exists and it had a Post Office listed by Fisher (#1967) but has anyone else found genuine stamps or a cover from this town? If so, please share an image so that we can see what the real thing looks like.

I have some more towns like this to follow............

User avatar
Roman
Posts: 116
Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:20 am

Re: Mythical Overprints 1 - Kerr 86 Jao Ho **Fact or Fiction**

Post by Roman » Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:22 pm

I saw this set once unused in an auction but I didn't bought it because it wasn't complete and some stamps were missing ... maybe in a review back I should buy it anyway. So this set exists, but maybe this set is quite rare. But as this set does not exists on cover ... you know what I'm thinking about it...

I can show you a scan of a this mysterious rubber chop... unfortunately this cover is not in my collection... :cry:
Jao-Ho.jpg
Jao-Ho.jpg (552.71 KiB) Viewed 833 times

User avatar
admin
Site Admin
Posts: 120
Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2009 7:14 pm
Location: Rural Sussex, England
Contact:

Re: Mythical Overprints 1 - Kerr 86 Jao Ho **Fact or Fiction**

Post by admin » Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:06 am

This is progress, we now know that a post-war stampless cover exists. The town and the Post Office is not in dispute. My problem is with the stamps listed by Kerr 86.1 to 8, are non-existant or at best fakes (see image). You will notice that Chan also lists this set (no doubt because Kerr did) but can show no examples. The only examples I have seen out there are eBay fakes copies from Kerr's sketch. You will notice that Kerr places a low value on this set indicating that they are not rare - so where are they?
Attachments
YiaoHo2inverted_small.jpg
YiaoHo2inverted_small.jpg (50.04 KiB) Viewed 832 times

User avatar
Roman
Posts: 116
Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:20 am

Re: Mythical Overprints 1 - Kerr 86 Jao Ho **Fact or Fiction**

Post by Roman » Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:35 pm

The block inverted overprints is indeed a fake, most characters are more or less differently.

I will try to get a good scan for you. It's like many other stamps of China, 20-30 years ago you can get a lot of them, than suddenly everything getting rare. Some guy told me once: PRC is "buying", LA or MLO is "collecting" :)

doc032848
Posts: 121
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 4:05 pm

Re: Mythical Overprints 1 - Kerr 86 Jao Ho **Fact or Fiction**

Post by doc032848 » Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:31 pm

Members,

I have the Jao-ho (Raohe) overprint set. I will check my records to see how many are recorded to exist.

I have kept careful records of all copies I have seen in collections or on a public site. So I should be able to tell you.

However, I have absolutely no evidence for its authenticity whatsoever. Now the question is: did this stamp even originate in the Dongbei? Many of the bogus issues were not even made in the Northeast. So how can they be genuine?

Now, on the stampless covers, I can say that they exist for virtually this whole area. They area genuine but very rare.
Except for Suipin and Fujin, and maybe Fu-yuan [need to check my records] there are only 1 or 2 recorded. The Raohe shown here I will check against the genuine copy I have seen but do not own.

Mr. He Hung asserted the authenticity of these covers many years ago in Mr. Poon's Magazine.

It was claimed for decades that the skull and crossbones issues were real. Recently, a stash of sheets has been found in Changchun.

So far, genuine covers with stamps from any locality in the old T'ung-an are almost non-existent. One cover I have is unique.
The locality is not even listed by Kerr. Roman has pointed this out, that is, that about 300 stamps exist in China but are not listed by Kerr. I wish I could see one of these catalogs as I have photocopies of some stamps that are new but not identified. I have added a lot of them because I have acquired them, but there may be some I have not even seen. If they are genuine, they should be listed.

This is where the Molisheff---Tarakanov covers help us. They show that at least we can say the stamps on them were IN the Dongbei at the time. I need to write another article about them.

User avatar
admin
Site Admin
Posts: 120
Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2009 7:14 pm
Location: Rural Sussex, England
Contact:

Re: Mythical Overprints 1 - Kerr 86 Jao Ho **Fact or Fiction**

Post by admin » Sat Sep 16, 2017 3:54 am

Going back to what has been said earlier. It is about the history and not just the overprints. If the Jao Ho overprints were around at the time they are as authentic as many other overprints.

It is nice also to see that the Harbin dealers did have some positive input to the story; confirming that an overprint was around at the time in the NE at least places the stamps in the right area, at the right time.

Maybe these stamps exist and have all been locked away in collections, I know that I have never seen any Jao Ho for sale and absolutely nothing on a cover!

doc032848
Posts: 121
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 4:05 pm

Re: Mythical Overprints 1 - Kerr 86 Jao Ho **Fact or Fiction**

Post by doc032848 » Mon Sep 18, 2017 3:17 pm

Simon,

That was exactly the reason for the Molisheff--Tarakanov covers. There was absolutely no need to make new things they could sell. It was done to make sure the sets they already had would sell to knowledgeable collectors. There are a few sets on those covers that I have verified as existing in a collection in the NE only; and then those covers. I can think of one set specifically that I know is a CPC issue!!
Sokolov would not sell them to me.

Early collectors saw almost no covers. They could not entrust them to the mails.

Most came out in collections with their owners.

Hope that makes it clear what these covers were.

George

User avatar
Roman
Posts: 116
Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:20 am

Re: Mythical Overprints 1 - Kerr 86 Jao Ho **Fact or Fiction**

Post by Roman » Mon Sep 18, 2017 6:03 pm

I also made my thought about these Molisheff--Tarakanov (an others) covers.

Some questions:

- Most covers were produced in the time early 1946 up to November 1946 (cancel date). How was it possible these guys got during the time of labor war so many different MLOs issues in their possession (even from very far areas like Inner Mongolia)? I don't think they travel around to collection from the local post offices.
- Many covers exists mixed MLO with nationalist stamps which were already invalid. Why the post office in Harbin accepted this?
- Can we are sure the covers not produced in the early 50' and got a for years backdated cancel? For this work the guys even don't need to be in China anymore.

And some thoughts:

- The early productions of these covers looks like they were dispatched in Harbin (to their address in Harbin), later covers were obviously not dispatched anymore. So these guys knew someone in the post office in Harbin who lend them the cancel or (what I assume) they take the cancel after office hours home and produce here all the covers.
- On these covers we found many MLOs stamps we will not be able to find on commercial covers and in opposite many stamps on commercial covers you can't find on these produced covers.
- The cancel date of these covers do not reflect the issue date of the stamps and also don't reflect if the stamp are still valid to use.

In conclusion:
- In my eyes it could very it be possible these guy produced a lot of fake MLOs, put them on covers with a backdated / faked Harbin cancel to have a "proof" for the collectors that these MLOs exists.
- I would go the opposite way and put all MLOs existing on these covers first as private / bogus / fake issue until I would be able to see them on a commercial cover. For me these covers are no proof for the existence of any MLO issue!

Early cover:
Homework.jpg
Homework.jpg (1.46 MiB) Viewed 803 times

User avatar
admin
Site Admin
Posts: 120
Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2009 7:14 pm
Location: Rural Sussex, England
Contact:

Re: Mythical Overprints 1 - Kerr 86 Jao Ho **Fact or Fiction**

Post by admin » Wed Sep 20, 2017 4:34 am

Note the cancel chosen. Even though some of the envelopes are addressed, the three star in the bottom segment cancel has been chosen. Three stars indicate non-postal use (ie; C.T.O.). The interesting thing is that I have NEVER encountered three stars in the bottom section of a Harbin postmark until these MLO dealer covers appeared. I have some examples of a Hsinking three star dater used on 10c stamps of Manchukuo in 1944 but nothing at all from Harbin during the lifetime of the Manchukuo regime.

User avatar
Roman
Posts: 116
Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:20 am

Re: Mythical Overprints 1 - Kerr 86 Jao Ho **Fact or Fiction**

Post by Roman » Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:21 am

On this (fake) cover you can see the guys in Harbin were in possession of (or have access to):

A genuine:
1.) Harbin canel
2.) Registered number cancel
3.) "Registered" cancel
151188005A.jpg
151188005A.jpg (326.02 KiB) Viewed 782 times
We don't know if all these covers are backdated, what we can say it was a intensive and massive misused of the Harbin register and post cancel on thousands of fake covers.

But they are also exists on real covers:
Harbin Brief (Large).jpg
Harbin Brief (Large).jpg (403.79 KiB) Viewed 782 times

Post Reply