Kerr 91.9a

Join Roman and Simon as we do our best to test the listings made by Kerr and later by Chan. What has been missed? Which overprints have been assigned to the wrong towns? What is genuine and what is suspect? - You get the idea......

Moderators: archiem, doc032848, wlin98004

User avatar
Roman
Posts: 113
Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:20 am

Kerr 91.9a

Post by Roman » Fri Sep 29, 2017 5:16 pm

Does this booklet pane exists or was it (what I think) mixed up with the black overprint (would be Kerr "91.14a")

User avatar
admin
Site Admin
Posts: 118
Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2009 7:14 pm
Location: Rural Sussex, England
Contact:

Re: Kerr 91.9a

Post by admin » Sat Sep 30, 2017 3:43 am

My guess is that it probably does exist. I have a copy of a 91.14a which you mentioned and Kerr did not list. See below.

I have failed to find the 9. 9a. 12. or 13. from this set so those stamps must be vary scarce (or maybe I have just been unlucky). It would have been hard to mix up a red overprint with a black one don't you think?
Attachments
KiaMuSze91.14a.jpg
KiaMuSze91.14a.jpg (34.46 KiB) Viewed 531 times

User avatar
Roman
Posts: 113
Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:20 am

Re: Kerr 91.9a

Post by Roman » Sat Sep 30, 2017 2:38 pm

I also failed 9. 9a. 12. or 13., I think they are really very rare. But expect 9a I saw all of them already in reference collections.

The booklet pane for the 2f in black is not very rare. If you are wondering how he can mixed up red and black overprint, we need to think about how he can missed the black overprint?

A similar problem for a previous set. The set 91.1-6 has two more stamps. How he can missed them?

Missing in Kerr:
Heilongjiang-Province-(黑龙江省)-Local-Issue,-Jiamusi-(佳木斯)---2.jpg
Heilongjiang-Province-(黑龙江省)-Local-Issue,-Jiamusi-(佳木斯)---2.jpg (143.65 KiB) Viewed 527 times
Heilongjiang-Province-(黑龙江省)-Local-Issue,-Jiamusi-(佳木斯)---5.jpg
Heilongjiang-Province-(黑龙江省)-Local-Issue,-Jiamusi-(佳木斯)---5.jpg (137.45 KiB) Viewed 527 times

doc032848
Posts: 121
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 4:05 pm

Re: Kerr 91.9a

Post by doc032848 » Sun Oct 01, 2017 5:33 am

Roman, Simon,

There is no question Chia-mu-szu is a prized and difficult set, The whole array of sets is not easy to complete.
It begins with the very first stamp "Kerr" 91.1.
For over 20 years I believed the only copies in existence show the top and bottom line transposed.
The two lines of the surcharge were often badly mis-registered, and in the case of the first listed value, occurred ONLY
with what is normally the bottom line of the surcharge transposed to the top, and the top was at the bottom.
But the properly placed 91.1 finally came my way. It is the only one I know of so far.
But do not believe this is an easy stamp to find but a really hard stamp to find, even mis-registered. Most collectors have 91.2-8.
I do not have the 91.9a myself but Simon shows it above.
But on the "kia" District overprint Kerr lists 91.34a, a booklet of 1Y/4f.......I have never seen this value nor did Hock, Corson, or Gates.
What we have is the 5Y/2 fen.

Now Roman shows us two new values to add to the first surcharges here. If they are the authentic overprint, then we can say that they were prepared but not issued. IF we can find some proof that they were used, or that some record exists including them, in a postal order, the n they must be considered as unissued. They would be highly desired as this is the first I am hearing of them.
If I am going to list what Kerr calls 91.34a, then I must see one that matches material I have. Remember, we need to verify
all additions, as the dealers, like some of our "friends" on eBay are going to start adding to the dirty work without hesitation.
Look at what happened to the local Silver Yuan control marks. I knew him pretty well, and with the Hong Kong Dealers Association, we all got to see his collection of Silver Yuan in November 1986 in Hong Kong. I had the honor of turning the pages!!
The only local silver group used I saw besides his that was high power was my late dear friend Henry Nyi,
I know my Jones had a good collection too, but he never showed it to me. It is now finally coming to light.

I hope I have helped.

doc032848
Posts: 121
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 4:05 pm

Re: Kerr 91.9a

Post by doc032848 » Sun Oct 01, 2017 5:36 am

P. S. Roman,

On stamps 12 and 13, Hock had them and so do I. They are probably rare as you say.

George

User avatar
Roman
Posts: 113
Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:20 am

Re: Kerr 91.9a

Post by Roman » Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:23 am

HI George,

thank you for your reply, please allow me to answer in sections so nothing get lost.

- Mizuhara had a 2fen vermilion overprinted (full perforated, not from booklet) in his collection, I don't believe a vermilion booklet exists. Simon didn't show Kerr 91.9a (he shows the unlisted black overprint).

- You can call commercial used stamps (of course) "issued" but in opposite you can't call unused stamps "unissued" (especially if other stamps from this set are commercial used known) and I don't post fakes of doubtful stamps here. :)

- How you define official issued and unissued MLO stamps? When Kerr listed them in his catalog because he found them on the Harbin dealer lists? You wrote earlier Kerr missed a lot of MLOs, I can confirm this by a high amount of unlisted MLOs I have in my collection! They are not doubtful only because they are not listed in Kerr.

- I think Kerr had a bad day by writing the catalog entries for Jiamusi (佳木斯). As you wrote the booklet pane Kerr 91.34a does not exists (it’s 1 元 / 2 分). Another mistake in this listing. An for this set he missed even three stamps. Kerr listing of Jiamusi is under best case "insufficient".

Roman
Attachments
Heilongjiang-Province-(黑龙江省)-Local-Issue,-Jiamusi-(佳木斯)---34.jpg
Heilongjiang-Province-(黑龙江省)-Local-Issue,-Jiamusi-(佳木斯)---34.jpg (113.66 KiB) Viewed 514 times
Heilongjiang-Province-(黑龙江省)-Local-Issue,-Jiamusi-(佳木斯)---41.jpg
Heilongjiang-Province-(黑龙江省)-Local-Issue,-Jiamusi-(佳木斯)---41.jpg (110.32 KiB) Viewed 514 times
Heilongjiang-Province-(黑龙江省)-Local-Issue,-Jiamusi-(佳木斯)---42.jpg
Heilongjiang-Province-(黑龙江省)-Local-Issue,-Jiamusi-(佳木斯)---42.jpg (111.32 KiB) Viewed 514 times

User avatar
Roman
Posts: 113
Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:20 am

Re: Kerr 91.9a

Post by Roman » Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:24 am

The booklet pane:
Attachments
Heilongjiang-Province-(黑龙江省)-Local-Issue,-Jiamusi-(佳木斯)---45.jpg
Heilongjiang-Province-(黑龙江省)-Local-Issue,-Jiamusi-(佳木斯)---45.jpg (697.22 KiB) Viewed 514 times

User avatar
admin
Site Admin
Posts: 118
Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2009 7:14 pm
Location: Rural Sussex, England
Contact:

Re: Kerr 91.9a

Post by admin » Sun Oct 01, 2017 12:33 pm

Chan lists your 3 unlisted stamps (Kerr's T161) but I still have a nagging doubt about them. Old collections don't have them and dealer covers of the time seem to be missing them. Somehow they seem to have appeared later, maybe the original chop fell into the wrong hands.

I think it is a bit simplistic to say that unless a stamp appears on a cover it is unissued. I am also not sure that the term "unissued" has any real meaning in connection with MLO's. If a stamp finds its way onto the market it seems to enter the list even if a chop has been used later as above.

User avatar
Roman
Posts: 113
Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:20 am

Re: Kerr 91.9a

Post by Roman » Sun Oct 01, 2017 5:52 pm

The missing stamps in Kerr's catalog have the denomination of 1$ and 5$, so the guys who made the "forgeries" need to have two chops (actually three chops if we count the missing stamps of the first issue as well). So theoretically, the guys misused the original chops to produce some stamps and than? Were they offered anywhere? How many do you saw in sale in the recent years? Were they offered for some high price or is even a high price possible as they are "unlisted" in the MLO bible Kerr (as to say)?

But you might be right for some points, I think there was a widely misused of chops, but mainly by the Harbin cover dealers. But this we can only solve one day by comparing the overprinted ink from used commercial stamps with other stamps of the set by XFR. Nothing for today, but in the close future I will do this.

User avatar
admin
Site Admin
Posts: 118
Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2009 7:14 pm
Location: Rural Sussex, England
Contact:

Re: Kerr 91.9a

Post by admin » Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:35 am

Actually there is another clue. Look at your three "unlisted" stamps with "佳" at the bottom. Note the way they all tilt to the right. Now look at the other stamps of that set in your collection and you will see most of them are upright with only a slight tilt to the left or right.

What this shows is that the "Unlisted" stamps all come from the same source - a later source in my humble opinion.

I attach an images for those who might look at this and wonder what we are talking about.
Attachments
JiaMuSiOldSetCover.jpg
JiaMuSiOldSetCover.jpg (283.8 KiB) Viewed 507 times
JiaMuSiOldSet.jpg
JiaMuSiOldSet.jpg (232.32 KiB) Viewed 507 times

Post Reply