Kerr 148.28a - 54a (FT25) Why so many inverted overprints?

Join Roman and Simon as we do our best to test the listings made by Kerr and later by Chan. What has been missed? Which overprints have been assigned to the wrong towns? What is genuine and what is suspect? - You get the idea......

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Kerr 148.28a - 54a (FT25) Why so many inverted overprints?

Post by admin » Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:41 am

This is a set of 27 Mukden Type overprints from Mukden City PO (Shenyang). For every stamp in the set there is a matching inverted overprint, making this set almost unique as far as MLO's go.

The question is why? Did the folk behind the counter ask "which way up do you want em"?

I suspect it was a commercial scheme by the post office to sell more stamps. Does anybody know the true story.

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Re: Kerr 148.28a - 54a (FT25) Why so many inverted overprints?

Post by Roman » Tue Oct 10, 2017 5:14 pm

I suspect it was a commercial scheme by the post office to sell more stamps.
This might be very close to the true story. By single chops you can find for serious overprinted stamps one stamp inverted and the rest normal. At maximum 2-3 stamps in a sheet of 100 may inverted by accident. For more I need to suspect commercial interests.

If I would write a catalog I would state for such an amount of inverted stamps that they are bogus...

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Re: Kerr 148.28a - 54a (FT25) Why so many inverted overprints?

Post by doc032848 » Tue Oct 10, 2017 5:53 pm

Roman, Simon,

Here you have hit on a very important phenomenon.

This set is a wood chop. I have several wood chop sets from Mukden and know of a back stamped cover for all but this one!

Because the catalogers have only listed one wood chop set, I think everyone gets mislead into thinking the issued set is this specific one!

But at this point I have no way to prove this set even is the one they are referring to. In fact, I can not even prove THIS chop was in the Dongbei!!

If we could prove it was there, with no evidence of use, I would put it into the "lowest category" with a note that if in two years I do not find confirmation that it even existed in the NE, then I would move it to the "questioned items" section.

So we must always keep our eyes open with MLOs!

George

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Re: Kerr 148.28a - 54a (FT25) Why so many inverted overprints?

Post by admin » Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:53 am

I don't have a cover with this chop, in fact I don't have any covers from Mukden with a Mukden Type chop. They seem curiously elusive.

In my copy of your book about Mukden Types the previous owner labelled this set the "most common". When you wrote your book how did you determine this overprint came from Mukden City?

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Re: Kerr 148.28a - 54a (FT25) Why so many inverted overprints?

Post by doc032848 » Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:55 pm

Simon,

I called it Mukden because that is what Kerr had mounted as "the" woodchop from there. There no other woodchops in his Mukden assigned sets.
His 1-27 is really Antung
His 28-54 are a big mix of rubber chops
Then the woodchops
Then other things.
Williams used to insist that the differences in the overprints were due to the fact that they were hand stamps, and had different workers doing the overprinting.
I do not believe very many of the overprints I ascribe to Mukden were done by hand, one stamp at a time.
Nor do I believe they are all necessarily genuine. If you look at my dating, you will see which ones are still in need of support, or assignment. I have made a little progress on that but not much.
Simon, genuine Mukden covers are often unique, or very close to it.
I would love to get just a handful more. The only place I know of where I will be able ot potentiality reconnect the unlocated ones with the places they came from is China.

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Re: Kerr 148.28a - 54a (FT25) Why so many inverted overprints?

Post by admin » Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:00 am

George,

Do you have a theory as to why covers from one of the Norths biggest cities are so hard to find? They should be, like Harben and Chang Chun, amongst the most common.

Williams (the publisher) had a point, no two chops ever seem exactly the same. Do you think these were combination chops or some other form of printing, if so what?

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Re: Kerr 148.28a - 54a (FT25) Why so many inverted overprints?

Post by doc032848 » Sat Oct 14, 2017 8:34 am

Simon,

Now you have asked some great questions!

First of all, as they say hindsight is 20-20 but not our vision of the future.
The Shenyang P. O. on orders from the soon-to-arrive postal officials of the ROC, prepared the so called "Mukden" types.
They began to accept mail assuming there would be a smooth transition. There wasn't! Within two months the system collapsed, according to Malinowski because the ROC had not sent in more personnel. But the facts are that they had control of the railroads and had the population totally terrified. So the amount of mail dropped dramatically. Within two months the system collapsed.
Now, as for the manner of the application of overprints, there were a number of different ways they were applied, but not of them were being done by experts. To really answer this part would take me a long time!
But you idea of overprinting a sheet which was on a stack of sheets would produce a lot of what you see because of the lack of "true orientation." That means that if we take an absolutely flat surface, and "orient" the movement of a device toward it, a true interface could only happen if the device oriented were perfect flat on its surface, had perfectly even inking,
and the angle of application had to be precisely 90 degrees. That also assumes all the "interface elements [=chops]" were identical. That would be asking for a miracle.
I am adding some pieces I have below. Check them out. It is only a small piece and you can see variations.
rsz_ft7.jpg
rsz_ft7.jpg (510.65 KiB) Viewed 1229 times

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Re: Kerr 148.28a - 54a (FT25) Why so many inverted overprints?

Post by Roman » Sat Oct 14, 2017 6:34 pm

On your scan I add some lines, you can see the orientation of the overprints is quite straight, not always perfect but very close to. But the placement of the overprints vary strong. For me a simplest explanation for this would be, they use a square shop and take the perforation or stamp borders for the alignment. How this exactly were practical solved we might never now, but by logic this would explain the very straight overprints.

Just image the PO manager told a new, small employee: "Please put all overprints very straight, that's important!". As the new employee really needs the job, he will exactly do what you found here: impressive straight overprints. :)
Mukden.jpg
Mukden.jpg (600.43 KiB) Viewed 1225 times

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Re: Kerr 148.28a - 54a (FT25) Why so many inverted overprints?

Post by doc032848 » Sun Oct 15, 2017 2:32 am

Roman,

I quite agree with you.
Yet when Williams says he never saw two overprint of this type that were identical, it avoids this issue:
1) sometimes small variations can be seen as in this piece due simply to application of the same piece across a sheet, and is just variations of the SAME overprint so their difference is minor and not worthy of different major number cataloging.
2) Sometimes the overprinting devices are just DIFFERENT, done at a different time, and perhaps place, etc. and is a major catalog-able type. Compare the block below to the previous one.
In my book, almost EVERY set I assign a number to, has been verified as different either with a multiple like these I am showing you, or by a different cancellation, naming different places of origin on cover [#2 above]. I do not list stamps that are simple varieties of the SAME overprint[# 1 above].
BTW, Roman your lines showing spacing and alignment, etc. are very helpful. I wish I knew how to do that!
Vide:
rsz_ft1_ft12.jpg
rsz_ft1_ft12.jpg (749.01 KiB) Viewed 1224 times

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Re: Kerr 148.28a - 54a (FT25) Why so many inverted overprints?

Post by Roman » Sun Oct 15, 2017 11:48 am

I used some professional software (Photoshop) for this, maybe one day I can teach you this live on a PC (bit complicated to explain in a forum).

I add some lines in you last scan. Again the overprint was made very carefully with some help to adjust the alignment I assume.
With-Lines.jpg
With-Lines.jpg (396.64 KiB) Viewed 1220 times

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