Kerr 64.1-18 ==> 124.X

Join Roman and Simon as we do our best to test the listings made by Kerr and later by Chan. What has been missed? Which overprints have been assigned to the wrong towns? What is genuine and what is suspect? - You get the idea......

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Roman
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Re: Kerr 64.1-18 ==> 124.X

Post by Roman » Wed Sep 20, 2017 2:44 pm

George,

today we have luck to have access to a worldwide network of collectors, for example my best sources are many WeChat groups where thousands of Chinese stamp collectors share information, news, discussion, scans etc. If you search for some information there is usually always someone who can help. By this way I got many scans of different MLO collections.

For MLO (and LA) you can use different ways to describe the issued locations. The modern way is just Heilungkiang, old way may Sankiang or some other former name for the area / location. Maybe the combination or both (modern and by history at the time when the stamp was issued) is the best way. I need to re-think about the best way how to organize them. New collectors may have no idea what is Sankiang, we know which area we are talking about. However, thank you for mentioning this problem.

Please let us keep this not so complicated, maybe we will never exactly know which currency (or currencies) were in charge between July and August 1946 in Holi (literature says Northeast Currency, but this may wrong or not the full truth).

The postage for the Sankiang area was: 1 yuan for local letter and 5 yuan for registered letter (10 yuan double registered). This I took as well from the literature. What was the reason to accept a 50 cents rate for your cover? I don't know.

Up to today we only can say Kerr 64.1-18 was maybe used in Holi, but with an inexplicable postage rate. However we found many Kerr 64.1-18 used in Lien Kiang Kow with correct postage rates.

Before our discussion getting into circle, what was the reason Kerr put 64.1-18 to Holi? By his register he had only ONE cover (maybe it's the one you show before by scan) with an inexplicable postage rate.

Roman

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Re: Kerr 64.1-18 ==> 124.X

Post by doc032848 » Wed Sep 20, 2017 6:28 pm

Roman,

OK, we will go more easily on this currency matter. I used to know someone in China that published articles on LA period currency, including Dongbei. He suddenly stopped writing and I can be very careful when I write to the people because they do not live in Muenchen or Hamburg.
Your assertion that Liangkiangkou was a CPC stronghold is good news! Many other important places went back and forth.
You have found a great resource if you can check with collectors in China. Just always remember that sometimes they may not be able to say things without great courage.
I am delighted that they give you local data!!
I have a question about a town near to Liangjiangkou name "Nan-cha." The stamps on covers have a unique blue CDS I can't explain. Do you know something about that town?
The rates you refer to were used up in Fujin District first I recall, and Tangyuan (Hogan---important place) did the same.
They also started to use the name "Hejiang" before Jiamuszu. It could be that the 50 fen rate was in the same currency as used in Mudanjiang. So much depended on the two front fighting the communist armies had to fight.
When I publish my book, I am going to give four ways to identify any locality. 2 English, long and short form Chinese ideographs.
Thank you so much for your help with these complicated issues.
I don't know if you have ever seen a meeting of the Canadian Parliament in Ottawa: it is like watching "bad boys' in the bad district of town! haha.....but Canada sure is a lovely place to live!!
Best Regards,
George

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Roman
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Re: Kerr 64.1-18 ==> 124.X

Post by Roman » Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:07 am

George,

thank you for your reply!

If we come back to the first question for this thread: Do you still think Kerr 64.1-18 was issued in Holi?

(The cancel from Nancha is a provisional cancel, looks like a rubber cancel. For provisional cancels often blue cancel color were used. Maybe the original post office cancel was stolen because the post office was looted by bandits.I add a similar provisional cancel from Shandong. PS: again a random that the Nancha [very close to Liangjiangkou] overprint looks similar to Kerr 64.1-18?! ;)
Blue-provisional-cancel.jpg
Blue-provisional-cancel.jpg (29.52 KiB) Viewed 736 times
Roman

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Re: Kerr 64.1-18 ==> 124.X

Post by doc032848 » Thu Sep 21, 2017 4:28 pm

Roman,

The is a nice example of 5x10f Mao!

All the early authors say Holi. BUT, I have run into this before: sometimes post offices supply other post offices and when the set gets discovered by a collector or dealer, they report they bought it at the second post office!
There also are many cases where a main post office supplied stock to those below it, and the same overprint gets reported
as two different sets! No one bothered to compare them. There are a number of cases of that in "Kerr."
I know you have come across this yourself.

There is another problem with the postal workers. The CPC was fighting the GMD's General Duyuming and the bandit armies at the same time. They needed every man for the front(s). So they kept on whoever was willing to work, and I know must have gotten "zhengfeng" as in Luda. In the morning the P. O. was open. In the afternoon the workers got "Zhengfeng."

I have read so much on the history of this part of the revolution for a new China, and it is almost miraculous they were able to accomplish it in the Dongbei. It was not just a matter of defeating the GMD Army. They also had to change the minds of the people who were not all Han. These were Mengu, Jurched, Tungus, Ewenki, Daghor and more!

These people once ruled all of China for centuries! Now Puyi and Puchieh were in Russian hands(!), and suddenly, for the first times, Han Chinese Armies were entering their sacred ground for the first time! The town where the declared they were the Jurched was (Y)ilan right in the area of Lianfjiangkoyu and Heli.

So the fight in this bitter cold place was truly heroic.

I get asked all the time who Joe Stalin supported too. Some say the CPC. NO. Joe Stalin supported JOE STALIN (only)!

I am now working on the book with a hope to publish within months, so it would be great if I could see these collections to make the book better!

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Re: Kerr 64.1-18 ==> 124.X

Post by doc032848 » Sat Oct 07, 2017 7:44 am

Roman,

Something very important occurred to me just now that I had forgot to mention which explains different rates on different
covers CANCELLED on the same day: the rate used is the rate on the day the letter was posted at the post office. That date is usually applied on the reverse of the cover near the central suture (usually). That is the day they put on the stamps
to cover the rate.
To save on cancelling devices and ink, they cancelled them all on the same day. WHY?
Every post office had a specific train schedule. It was say once every week, or once every month. [The Soviets had stolen 80% of the rolling stock to loot the Dongbei]. So each post office had a specific time when they had to have the mail bag on the postal hook on the platform. But the trains were often delayed because there was a war going on.
Each train would send a message when they were near. That is the day the stamps on all covers would be cancelled and put into the bag. So covers could be cancelled on the same day with different rates.
Now you ask if I will list the 64.1-18 as Lienjiangkou and the answer is yes, and I will mark it as a CPC set.
I will do the same now with Nancha, id est, list them as CPC. Good luck to collectors trying to find the second Nancha set!
My records indicate that so far I have only seen two mint sets!

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Re: Kerr 64.1-18 ==> 124.X

Post by admin » Sat Oct 07, 2017 10:33 am

Do you mean good luck to collectors trying to find the third overprint with 南坆 Nan Cha in blue?

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Re: Kerr 64.1-18 ==> 124.X

Post by Roman » Sat Oct 07, 2017 6:40 pm

George,

thank you for your idea that different rates on the same day have the reason because the letters were carried by different trains! One day when I have more time I will try to verify this. So far at the moment it sounds a very good explanation for same day / same location but different rates.
My records indicate that so far I have only seen two mint sets!
Do you mean Kerr 149.3-5? This set is not rare ...

Roman

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Re: Kerr 64.1-18 ==> 124.X

Post by Roman » Fri Oct 20, 2017 5:25 pm

If we continue the discussion for these sets.

The Kerr 124.2-3 is bit unclear for me. Was there ever demand of this small denomination of 13 and 20f in Lianjiangkou (蓮江口)? Are they from Lianjiangkou (蓮江口) at all? Does anyone saw them ever used?

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